tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post6707744249829871539..comments2023-03-28T10:57:02.659-07:00Comments on Revisiting Marcion: Did Marcion's Apostolikon contain 10 Pauline letters?Jameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-31842721399335818862013-01-11T15:48:45.541-08:002013-01-11T15:48:45.541-08:00Perhaps, but Ireaneus seems to have a tendency to ...Perhaps, but Ireaneus seems to have a tendency to make up fictional heretics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-87576238884585934222013-01-11T14:56:09.108-08:002013-01-11T14:56:09.108-08:00The aeon "speculation school" actually b...The aeon "speculation school" actually began with Nicolas according to Irenaeus, not with Valentinus.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-62794023893091086572012-12-19T16:27:23.057-08:002012-12-19T16:27:23.057-08:00"Marcion was not a Gnostic of the aeon-specul..."Marcion was not a Gnostic of the aeon-speculation school" does not equals "Marcion was not Gnostic at all."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-30054965838455314812012-12-18T05:27:51.270-08:002012-12-18T05:27:51.270-08:00It is saying they call him Savior but not Lord.It is saying they call him Savior but not Lord.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-34224418208847445932012-12-18T05:27:06.979-08:002012-12-18T05:27:06.979-08:00Marcion is considered Gnostic in his thinking by m...Marcion is considered Gnostic in his thinking by many Church Fathers.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-40014542279237575462012-11-18T17:38:04.076-08:002012-11-18T17:38:04.076-08:00I've tried to read Ireneaus, but I must confes...I've tried to read Ireneaus, but I must confess, I've never been able to get all the way through it. In any case, Marcion was not a Gnostic of the aeon-speculation school; that was Velentinus who comes after Marcion, as Origen says in Miscellanies 7 or such that the heretics have a tradition that Marcion was among Valentinus and Basilides et al as an old man among youngsters.<br /><br />Also, I would not derive from the comment "And for this reason they affirm it was that the Saviour-for they do not please to call Him Lord-did no work in public..." that only Gnostics call him Saviour. The complaint is not about them calling him Saviour but about their never calling him Lord.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-62596129112226000152012-11-16T19:07:45.332-08:002012-11-16T19:07:45.332-08:00Just because Tertullian goes through 10 epistles d...Just because Tertullian goes through 10 epistles does not mean Marcion had 10 epistles. The Marcionites could have used 11-12 for all we know. The Muratorian fragment has Laodiceans and Alexandrians. The point was that not one father explicitly mentions such a thing.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-34760299455286638732012-11-16T19:06:02.026-08:002012-11-16T19:06:02.026-08:00Also it was a typo. I meant to say that a Gnostic ...Also it was a typo. I meant to say that a Gnostic only calls him Savior. A Gnostic does not call him Lord for that is reserved for the Demiurge. I am not saying a Catholic does not call him Savior. The typo caused that. Anyway I will fix it later.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-5655135131012524272012-11-16T19:01:39.440-08:002012-11-16T19:01:39.440-08:00It seems Marcion wrote 2Corinthians the way I read...It seems Marcion wrote 2Corinthians the way I read it. Clearly you have not read Irenaeus. AH 1.1.3, "Such are the thirty Aeons in the erroneous system of these men; and they are described as being wrapped up, so to speak, in silence, and known to none [except these professing teachers]. Moreover, they declare that this invisible and spiritual Pleroma of theirs is tripartite, being divided into an Ogdoad, a Decad, and a Duodecad. And for this reason they affirm it was that the "Saviour"-for they do not please to call Him "Lord"-did no work in public during the space of thirty years,13 thus setting forth the mystery of these Aeons. They maintain also, that these thirty Aeons are most plainly indicated in the parable14 of the labourers sent into the vineyard. For some are sent about the first hour, others about the third hour, others about the sixth hour, others about the ninth hour, and others about the eleventh hour. Now, if we add up the numbers of the hours here mentioned, the sum total will be thirty: for one, three, six, nine, and eleven, when added together, form thirty. And by the hours, they hold that the Aeons were pointed out; while they maintain that these are great, and wonderful, and hitherto unspeakable mysteries which it is their special function to develop; and so they proceed when they find anything in the multitude15 of things contained in the Scriptures which they can adopt and accommodate to their baseless speculations."Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17665254830500405547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-43003446447249003172012-11-10T15:54:15.131-08:002012-11-10T15:54:15.131-08:00BTW, can you give a reference for this claim of yo...BTW, can you give a reference for this claim of yours that Irenaeus says only Gnostics call Jesus 'Saviour'? This seems like a very new claim to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3453650215068691144.post-34635198784145271762012-11-10T15:47:20.226-08:002012-11-10T15:47:20.226-08:00Have you even read the whole of Tertullian's &...Have you even read the whole of Tertullian's "Five Books Against Marcion"? In the 5th book Tertullian claims to go letter by letter or epistle by epistle, whatever you want to call it. He goes through 10 of them claiming to mention some information about what Marcion removed and what he left in -- this is where the idea that Marcion had 10 epistles of Paul comes from. It is quite likely that Tertullian doesn't know what he's talking about. Probably Marcion is simply the author of the original versions of Romans and Galatians and had absolutely nothing to do with any of the other epistles or letters. But in book 5, Tertullian puts forth this fiction that Marcion took 10 epistles of Paul and cut material out of them, and that's where the idea comes from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com